Those who WOULD. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one. Who in their right mind would want to cross over? The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. Punishment of this type is eternal. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. That little valley is a likely spot. And as far as Rabbi Kimhi goes, note that even he stated the alleged dump of Gehenna became an analogy for the judgment of the wicked, which demonstrates that even the first writer to make this connection saw it to be an analogy for the place that the wicked will be judged. And nowhere did either Christ or any Apostle ever teach that. The three layers of Hades were called glooms for good reason; they were realms devoid of emotion, hope, and peace. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. (the only other times 'dogs' 'tables' and 'crumbs of bread' are mentioned is in the context of a gentile asking Jesus for help. 20:10. This combination of abominable fires and divine judgment led to the association of the valley with a place of perpetual judgment (see Isa. PDF. It was an interesting article and I am glad that you were not trying to disprove eternal punishment though at least one person wanted to think otherwise. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. Diana Group Profile and History . He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning "valley of Hinnom"), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. Gehenna -- the Valley of Hinnom -- was indeed a valley outside Jerusalem. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. Neovia group's Profile, Revenue and Employees. Marcos you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. Kent thank you for your comment. Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? They will long to die, but death will flee from them. This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. The Gray Waste (more fully, the Gray Wastes of Hades; also, Hades, The Three Glooms, Hope's Loss or The Nadir) is a strongly neutral evil aligned plane of existence. If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? I find it interesting that people use the ideas they have been taught about 'hell' being eternal and transfer that to a symbolic statement that Jesus made about worms and fire. I'm sure there will come forth a brilliant solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear. At least there is no evidence of any other fires having been kept up in the valley; as has sometimes been supposed(Biblical Researches, vol. Even though the word "Gehenna" comes from the Valley of Hinnom, simply rendering it as "garbage dump" or "valley of waste disposal" or "burning garbage" could not be an accurate translations, because that's not what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). Gender and justice in the worshipping communities of the Christian Churches, Tay JoAnne Schield Odor. Rome? Why is there this belief that there is no redemption? I don't believe that and I don't believe the last commenter does either. But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. ), the valley was later transformed into a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. Are you serious? Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. True enough. In Hebrew, the Valley of Hinnom was 'Ge Hinnom' which transliterated into Greek became 'Gehenna.' Because of its history of infant sacrifice and idol worship, the area was associated with desecration, abominable fires . Salvation does not have to be eternal. And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. The planned facility closures, along with a marketing office, could likely lead to the loss of 88 jobs, said a spokesperson. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley also became the perpetual burning-garbage dump and city sewer. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. Romans 5:18-21 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. OR look at a verse like this and at least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched . It is never used by Jesus, and is only found in three places in the new testament, Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where Paul is talking about his 'punishment' of Christians before his conversion, and in Hebrews 10:29 where the context again is between those who adhere to the old covenant in opposition to the new, only this time the tables are turned. "Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. The flies laid eggs on the surface of the dump. You simply over-reading certain passages. God is not a torturer. Much less towards others with "universalist" leanings. Gehenna was not a perpetually burning trash dump." . I also find it hard to be confident in any council since they often allow someone to have a leading role who would be declared a heretic a short time later, like the case of Marcellus you brought up.There seemed to be a lot of see-sawing going on. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. Certainly they produced less waste than a modern city. I've always thought that this was an established fact. No council ever did that! Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". Rev. And then "the age" is either eternal both times or it is temporal. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, there is a difference between "material" heresy and "formal" heresy the former is error in contents, which might as well be unwitting, the latter is the obstinate insistance on such an error. be anathema!) 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). One of the strange things about all of the talk about whether punishment is eternal or not is the fact that if the Lord had wanted to communicate the idea that punishment would be eternal, there are several ways to do this in Greek and make it crystal clear. In the lower part of the Hinnom Valley and Kidron Valley, the city dumped its waste and burned its trash. Calling God "The God of the ages" (aions) is stating a fact, God is God over the ages. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Everything! Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? Don't stress about any of the Bible's judgment language happening at any time after the first century! Ive always thought that this was an established fact. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. Todd, capital punishment also qualifies as eternal punishment. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. Another portion of the ravine became a cesspool receiving the . The fire never went out. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Again, the torment is the separation. The Valley of Hinnom ( Hebrew: , romanized : G en-Hnnm, lit. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. "At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? "Worms" in Isaiah 66:24 is towlah, and Gesenius notes that this word is especially used to denote worms that feed on FLESH, although it is also used to talk about worms in bread and the worm that killed Jonah's shade plant. One is that the age-during is modified by what it refers to. This is the third entry in a three-part series deconstructing popular illustrations that pastors give their congregations, all of which might sound good or spiritual, but do not correspond to history or reality. My last post was too long so here's the rest . Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). It says it is "not quenched". The restoration of these cities is tied to the PEOPLE that lived there in 16:55. Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. For now, just notice the term as . "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. ["Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? No council ever decreed whether someone was a "Christian". All of the trash, refuse, and dung from the city was dumped out there. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me, says the LORD. You cannot base yourself on the supposed "true" meaning of a word Jesus used while at the same time ignoring that he also spoke of eternal punishment. There is a lot of other stuff about fallen spirits changing form, etc., that makes it understandable how he would get into trouble. "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". The BiblePlaces Blog provides updates and analysis of the latest in biblical archaeology, history, and geography. Ezekiel doesn't utter any either and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". If it were "eternal pruning" and this doesn't make sense to you, your problem is with Christ. That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. Rather, god gives the gift of immortality to the saved only per apostle Paul. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! You would think this would have been addressed early on if the case was clear cut and universal salvation was heresy. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. If He only referred to Gehenna itself, a garbage dump that was used as an incinerator outside the city of Jerusalem, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Jesus' time had nothing to do with the judgment of Gehenna. As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". Mk. If not there, where? He remarked, Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called Gehenna.. Gehenna, more commonly known as the Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the Son of Hinnom or Valley of the Children, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna was not a dump outside Jerusalem. That did not happen. But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. Gehenna is the Greek version of the biblical word Gehinnom or Gei Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom Joshua 15:8). dumpsite, rubbish dump, trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as hell, writers and preachers accept and propagate the story. McBride has more details and the sources in his post. What is supposed to come after salvation? "the worm never dies" how do you turn never into "sometime in the future"? En contraire. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! I like how you responded to the (?I guess they are unbelievers) in the comments. My time, unfortunately, is limited too. About the other direction he didn't ask. . If this parable is supposed to teach anything about punishment in the afterlife, you would think that this gulf would not be necessary. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. The verses are clearly parallel, so that eternal MUST mean the same for the blessed and the cursed. I just got done reading Rob Bell's new book, and he relies heavily on this garbage myth as evidence that Jesus' teachings on hell are metaphorical. After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. But if they happened to return next week, would that mean that sinners from Sodom would not be punished for their sins? From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a . Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside.]. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. And speaking of context, you are ignoring the context that Jesus is alluding to in this passage, and that is Isaiah 66:23-24. If it was consistently translated as 'eternal' people would see how ridiculous that idea is. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ). Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. The purpose is to build your discernment when people say bibley things, and not let evangelical historical sound bites lead you to repeat them. [Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Nowhere did either Christ or any Apostle ever teach that `` eternal fire '' and eternal tormenters in. `` aionian '' is applied to God himself, this does n't make sense to you, problem... 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